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To buy or not to buy? (Sony A7 / A7r)

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發表於 2013-11-1 14:28:23 | 顯示全部樓層
MIG 發表於 2013-11-1 13:30
What about Summicron 28? I think W want to know that

I also want to know that.  Does it work fine with M28 F2 ASPH?
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發表於 2013-11-1 15:49:51 | 顯示全部樓層
前天試了A7r.... 又沒想像那麼醜怪呀.... 色水也很突出, 不比N,C差, 可能更好.
ISO當然比M9好,
其實自問也沒認真用過M9@ISO 1250, 1600, 2500......
於是的起心干用M9拍了些ISO1600,2500的, 加上Nik Dfine 的加持..... 要印8x10, 其實又絕不差
如果在昏暗的歺廳裏又一定要有f/8 + 1/500s, 那M9就真沒辦法了.

A7r 加上手柄其實幾靚仔... 四四方方.....真唔想交番俾Sony個staff.

算..... 幻像啫
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 樓主| 發表於 2013-11-1 16:17:04 | 顯示全部樓層
i think there is still a quintessential difference between the two color renditions of CCD and CMOS. Without doubt, CCD - particularly Kodak CCD - produces the best color. It may not be the most accurate and factual color, but it is the most "appealing" color. The only CMOS sensor which can come close is Foveon, which nonetheless has another very different color rendition - high micro contrast, vibrancy, and contrasty. Foveon is the digital equivalent of Kodachrome.

Therefore, I think it is right to say M9 still has more beautiful color. In fact, CMOS files are a bit hard to "cook" in the photoshop. I think vinceharus rightfully pointed out that the "workflow" will be very different. Not just to say EVF vs rangefinder experience, it also includes different approaches in post-processing. Most of the time, the hardest part to get right of color is skin tone. From the out-of-camera JPEGs I saw from A7/A7r, I think the skin tone is good, or at least good enough. I still cannot convert the RAW files with Adobe yet, so it is still a very preliminary conclusion. I can say I'm impressed by the color rendition of A7/ A7r. Even for the JPEGs, reducing shadows already produces very pop-up images. I like it.

With that said, it is not a perfect camera by any means. I don't think it is a good camera with wide angle M lenses. Dark corners, color-shift as best, smearing as worst. Performance will become even worse if the lens has a very ball-like rear element that is close to the sensor, namely, the biogon design. The incident angle is still too big for proper performance, even with micro lenses. It just won't work.

But if one uses 35mm lenses or above, the A7r will be quite a joy to use - very easy to focus, and super accurate even on 36mp resolution. I think some 28mm will perform well too. But I won't go wider than that.

Technology changed. In the film era, rangefinder, i.e. short-flange distance, is good for wide, or eve super wide lenses. Biogon design helped to produce distortion-free images, such as the SWC. But with the introduction of digital sensors, concept changed. For wide or super wide, it is safer to go with DSLR bodies or even medium format. After all, different technologies lead to different designs, which also brings different usage and preferences.
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發表於 2013-11-1 17:28:35 | 顯示全部樓層
It has been mentioned in the feature notes for A7r. It's designed for landscape lover so it takes out the low pass filter for extra sharpness. It might not be popular to general public but for technical camera with digital back, there is a method for color cast. By using the LCC on Capture One, I guess it will serve very well as a landscape camera.

To me, I don't believe anymore CCD/CMOS mystery, color rendition etc... It's all your skill on RAW processing and final finishing/presentation. Lens' character, bokeh, sharpness is another story... can't help much in post processing.
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 樓主| 發表於 2013-11-1 17:54:20 | 顯示全部樓層
wesley 發表於 2013-11-1 17:28
It has been mentioned in the feature notes for A7r. It's designed for landscape lover so it takes ou ...

I entirely agree with you, wesley.

The difference in terms of color rendition between CCD vs CMOS really lies on how good your post-processing skill is. As least on theory, the only thing matter is color-depth, i.e. the amount the data on color captured. DXO just released marks on A7r. It is a very high mark. Interestingly, just like what you said, color accuracy actually is not THAT important if you know how to "cook" it. It explains why DXO doesn't include color accuracy in its marks, but the data on color accuracy actually is measured for side-reference if one digs into each sensor's report. But of cos, the great thing about shooting with CCD is convenience. Having great color out-of-the-box is a bliss.

I haven't thought about the LCC method. You are actually right. Because I don't use capture one, so never really considered this method. I know many Phase people do that. It is a smart approach.

If talking about resolution and level of details, I don't think anyone will be disappointed by A7r. A7 is still a consumer product. It is not as sharp. I'm not going to consider it. After all, I prefer cameras without low-pass filter. I don't like applying unsharp mask. I think it is a compromise. A7r is in fact a better deal. Just 5k more, but it comes with the highest level of image quality up to today.
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發表於 2013-11-1 18:18:24 | 顯示全部樓層
Frankly... my plan is Canon TSE24II + Metabones EF-E adapter + A7r, Capture One LCC in case of color cast. PS stitching, Tilt LCD, Ipad Mini WiFi control... shutter release..... USB powering....

It's an IDEAL landscape setup
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發表於 2013-11-1 19:51:45 | 顯示全部樓層
It depends on what you mean by post-processing "technique".

In my experience, each digital camera (sensor) requires a different set of post-processing "technique".  It is a matter of personal familiarity as well as personal preference.  One can work wonders with one sensor and be a dud with another sensor.  The Kodak CCD in M9 and Monochrom just came very naturally to me.  I had considerable difficulties with Nikon, Canon, and Sony NEX CMOS sensors.  This is just me.

I think it is quite arrogant to say that if you can't work with a certain sensor, your post-processing technique is no good.  For someone who can confidently claim this, we look forward to his good news of joining Magnum soon.  I'm sure we'll enjoy his masterpieces every day.
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 樓主| 發表於 2013-11-1 20:16:40 | 顯示全部樓層
vincecharus 發表於 2013-11-1 19:51
It depends on what you mean by post-processing "technique".

In my experience, each digital camera ( ...

actually, i think, if anyone can get the skintone of CMOS sensor "right", he or she is already expert to me. to me, i think it is VERY difficult.

landscape is relatively easy. because there is no "right" color for landscape. but for portraiture, people may have some general idea of how skin tone should be. even, some slightest bit of red-shift (most Canon and Nikon DSLRs have this problem) can already be off-putting.

I think CCD still has an advantage. Color and skin tone is still the main reason I shoot digital backs. But at the same time, the advantage of CCD is not an absolute advantage. I think some people can really tweak CMOS files very nicely. But unfortunately, it is not me

by the way, vinceharus, I just tried my friend's S2. the color is damn good.
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發表於 2013-11-1 20:39:43 | 顯示全部樓層
Jason 發表於 2013-11-1 20:16
actually, i think, if anyone can get the skintone of CMOS sensor "right", he or she is already exp ...

"I just tried my friend's S2. the color is damn good."

Try Leica S then
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發表於 2013-11-1 20:42:22 | 顯示全部樓層
vincecharus 發表於 2013-11-1 13:35
For me, the difference between CCD and CMOS is similar to the difference between oil and watercolor. ...

呢張又好正wor
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 樓主| 發表於 2013-11-1 20:52:16 | 顯示全部樓層
kgv 發表於 2013-11-1 20:39
"I just tried my friend's S2. the color is damn good."

Try Leica S then

any significant difference in terms of color rendition between S and S2?
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發表於 2013-11-1 20:53:35 來自手機 | 顯示全部樓層
Are those Magnum photog work with film and wet printing mostly?
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發表於 2013-11-1 20:54:37 | 顯示全部樓層
Jason 發表於 2013-11-1 20:52
any significant difference in terms of color rendition between S and S2?

No serious comparison
but the AF speed is much improved
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 樓主| 發表於 2013-11-1 21:01:30 | 顯示全部樓層
kgv 發表於 2013-11-1 20:54
No serious comparison
but the AF speed is much improved

yes. for AF, definitely.

i suspect for image quality, both cameras should be very similar. after all, they use the same sensor. i think the lenses of the S system are great. but no "true focus" or equivalent is a deal breaker to me. and i like its weight too. it's pretty light for med format.
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發表於 2013-11-1 21:20:51 來自手機 | 顯示全部樓層
Very insightful views from you guys over these days. Let's keep going on!
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發表於 2013-11-1 21:42:28 | 顯示全部樓層
Jason 發表於 2013-11-1 20:16
actually, i think, if anyone can get the skintone of CMOS sensor "right", he or she is already exp ...

A friend of mine works wonders with Nikon CMOS. Take a look:

http://www.photobyrichard.com/

I have tested Leica S a few months ago. Absolutely fantastic, but it is not a low light camera. To use it everyday, I'll have to be married to my lights, softbox, and tripod! Leica M is not as high resolution but much lighter and more versatile. I might consider buying S at some stage when I have some idea of how to use it regularly.
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發表於 2013-11-1 21:44:05 | 顯示全部樓層

Thx for your kind words K-San! My technique is no good, but the sensor is wonderful!
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 樓主| 發表於 2013-11-1 22:49:56 | 顯示全部樓層
vincecharus 發表於 2013-11-1 21:42
A friend of mine works wonders with Nikon CMOS. Take a look:

http://www.photobyrichard.com/

Your friend took some good pictures

Yah. Leica S is a different breed, for a very different use. I think, for you, because you shoot in concerts a lot, M9 should work very well for you - it is quiet. and concerts usually not not too dim, i guess ISO 400 / 640 can serve pretty well. S is too much a monster for that
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發表於 2013-11-1 22:53:25 | 顯示全部樓層
vincecharus 發表於 2013-11-1 13:35
For me, the difference between CCD and CMOS is similar to the difference between oil and watercolor. ...

M9 appears perfect match of 5014a
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發表於 2013-11-1 23:41:42 | 顯示全部樓層
Did any chings has a chance to try out the 21/3.4 super elmar on the a7/a7r? I think we now generally know both cameras perform reasonably well for 35mm or above, and sort of lacking in terms of wides.

I am quite interested to know how these modern "optimized for digital" leica wide perform on a7/a7r. I think all of us agree these super elmars is spectacular on m9/m9p, so what if they still got 80% to 90% on the Sonys? To me, then it greater increases the appeal for these 2 cameras.
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